In the 2nd and final part of my chat with Mick we consider the cushioning and shapes of running shoes, wearing runners to the pub, why it's worthy buying running shoes in store and what changes are on the horizon for the industry.

I’ve found a shoe - the Brooks Glycerin - that I feel is perfect for my foot and have no issues doing the bulk of my running in it. However, a lot of my patients are constantly trying new shoes as they haven’’t found one they are completely comfortable in yet. Do you find most of your runners will return for the same shoe, or are most people constantly trying different ones?

It’s a mix. There’s a lot of people who have been wearing the Asics Gel Kayano for 20+ years and are completely comfortable in them. If it works don’t change it. But then you get others who are willing to change brands. In the end most brands use the same types of ideas, similar kinds of foam compositions, a lot more injected foam now in the sense of silicon or PU injected foam not only to aid the cushioning but to lighten the shoe as opposed to EVA or sheet EVA. Asics are doing a shoe called the Dynaflyte, that flyte foam is outstanding but for an Asics shoe to move away from Gel cushioning that would be catastrophic. Nike did it in 2008 with a Lunar foam, that was the first real incarnation of it on the market but they didn’t lose their Air pads.

Did Nike change that Lunar range recently? I have a patient that does a lot of running and is very disappointed in the new Lunar.

I’m the same. Nike probably haven’t really had the detail in running that they probably should, but they are big enough and strong enough - and they are still a performance brand. They’re easy to knock at the moment because of their firing restrictions - people who have worn the Pegasus for 30 years are now struggling in them because they've made them a little bit shallower, a bit less cushioning in the heel, a bit less volume in the upper, they’re not as comfortable in the shoe. There’s still Lunar in the Vomero, and then Nike have just done the attempt at a marathon in under 2 hours in what is a very hoka-esque shoe. So they’re still around the running shoe market, its just whether they decide to target it in the US.

Talking cushioning systems, Brook brought out MoGo when I was working for you. Is it still MoGo?

It’s Super DNA now and they’re about to release a new midsole composition called DNA AMP. At the moment the focus is on finding a combination of weight and cushioning in a shoe, with the midsole foams providing the biggest chunk of both of these areas.

In your personal opinion is it beneficial to have a couple of pairs of running shoes on the go at one time - either from a training perspective or maintenance of the shoe perspective?

Just from an injury prevention perspective. A person doesn’t always go to the gym and just do bench press all the time. If you’re running between 3-7 times a week you should be considering probably having at least one and a half shoes on the go at all times. Something to offer a slight loading change.

That makes sense from a training perspective - if you do the same thing over and over again you end up with overload injuries. 

And that’s what happens, and people think the injury is because of the shoe but it’s probably because you’ve been in the same shoe for 800k’s and you’re doing the same thing over and over.

When I’m thinking about feet and how a shoe fits - and this might have changed a little bit or I might not be on the right track - the things I would consider is the shape of a persons arch in a weight-bearing position and whether their foot over/under/normally pronates. Given that they’ve taken some of the medial posting out of the shoes now maybe the pronation is such an important factor. What is it you would consider when fitting someone with a running shoe?

Well what has been comfortable in the past. It’s very simplistic but if someone has been comfortable in a Nike Free, they may change brands and go for a lighter, but slightly more cushioned shoe shoe, whether it be a Brooks Pure or Saucony Kinvara, but if they have been comfortable in that reduced off-set, lighter weight shoe sometimes that’s all you need to do. You want to pay attention to ensuring the shoe is the right shape for the person. You also want to take in to account what has been bad as well - if you’re always getting blisters in an Asics shoe for example, it is the wrong fit or it is the wrong shoe. It could be the shape, the taping of the shoe where the branding is, just little things. But it is hard when people are still predominantly buying shoes emotively based on how they look. So it’s a balancing act.

You mentioned the shape of the shoe, a lot of people probably aren’t familiar with the term a ‘last’ of a shoe and how it relates to a person’s foot type, whether it’s a flat foot, higher arch etc. What is the ‘last’ of a shoe and what options do we have?

The ‘last’ is what the shoe is built upon. Typically tire’s 3 that the brands use - a curved, semi-curved and straight. Curved will be a lot of your Track and Field type stuff. Straight lasted shoes, which is where Brooks, Saucony, Mizuno, a little bit of New Balance, Mizunos and Saucony, they all play for that flatter appeared foot or collapsed arch. Not necessarily bigger people as opposed to what the theory is, but sometimes over time your tendons and ligaments relax and the foot just flattens out and you need a wider base to support that through the mid-foot. 

And then you’ve got the majority of shoes that are built on semi-curved lasts, which is all your Nikes, all your Adidas, most of your Asics, most of your Brooks, New Balance, Mizuno and Saucony. Then it’s the different width options the brands offer that will help with your fittings. This is where the medial arch support becomes less important, if you can fit the actual base of the shoe to fit the weight then you will support that foot.

Because that semi-curved last is the most popular one out there I see a lot of people with flat feet that have only ever been in that type of shoe. Then when they do try a shoe with a straight last they immediately feel better, or more supported in the shoe.

More supported. The other thing people say is they’re a little shocked that they are comfortable in it. This is because they’ve never experienced It before. A shoe should be comfortable as soon as you put it on. There’s a lot more shoes now on lower off sets (8-4mm) which naturally opens up the arch area of the shoe a bit more to provide a more relaxed fit - it’s a sort of semi-straight last.

What's the process you go through at your stores to ensure your customer is getting the most suitable shoe for their foot type?

We measure under load - so heel to toe, width and length of arch. We also do a pressure test where we do a video analysis as well. It gives the customer an indication of where their foot is falling. Some people are quite knowledgeable about it now. We’re lucky in this region that we have a major retailer like The Athlete’s Foot who have spoken the importance of correctly fitting shoes for a long time - 35 years now. There are very few regions in the world that have that. That’s why I’d say we get it right in about 99% of cases, and that’s across the board. There’s 1400 staff around the country so there’s naturally going to be different interpretations but the basics of fitting a shoe are pretty standardised.

Another thing you do is always give your customers a few options to try-on.

Correct, and that’s for the depth perception. We can measure the foot in 2 dimensions, length and width, but the 3rd important dimension is depth, and you only get that from putting on a shoe. It comes back to feeling immediately comfortable in a shoe and our process actually speeds the process up. There’s so much noise in running shoes - some good, some bad, some otherwise - most of our guys have had exposure to it, most are reading about it, and sometimes it is the depth of the shoe that is going to make it most comfortable. For others it might be a bunion window, it could be the 3 stripes on the Adidas that make it feel tight. It mightn’t look like much but if a shoe doesn’t feel right, then you put a more generous shoe on and it feels better, that could make all the difference. 

I’ve heard a lot of the big shoe companies are becoming more environmentally conscious these days. What are they doing?

There’s just less waste. With these blended mid-soles they're just using a mould rather than the old sheet EVA, which is like a double mattress cut-off with a dozen shoe prints cut out and the rest of it would have been thrown out. Then Nike with their knitted uppers (flyknit) there’s absolutely no waste at all, the same with Adidas and their knitted uppers.

How many years have you been in the running shoe industry and what got you in to it?

Since ’94, so 23 years. I grew up in to it, so I didn’t get a choice. Dad owned The Athlete’s Foot in Griffith, working in that store when growing up was my first exposure to the market. 

And what’s the biggest change in running shoes over that time?

The acceptance of running shoes as casual wear.

Gym wear in general as casual wear?

That is at the moment, but even just wearing running shoes with your outfit going to the pub has become more acceptable. When I started going to pubs no one would be wearing running shoes.

Speaking of changes, online shopping and the appearance of outlet stores has made it easier for people to pick up discounted running shoes. What are the benefits of coming in store to purchase your shoes?

Online to outlet is a bit different, outlets at least you get to try them on but you’re serving yourself. Shoes in the outlet are usually a season old, if not 12 months. Some will be OK, the risk factors of getting the wrong shoe are just heightened. You’ve probably got reduced warranties on them, you don’t get a trying period like you do with Hight Street retail. If you take a shoe from us you get a period where you can take it away and wear it and if you’re not happy with it we’ll swap it over. Do many come back, no. People are often shocked when you tell them you can bring it back.

So people can take it home, run in them and if they’re not happy can bring them back to you?

Yes, but as I said, not many come back.

We’ve mentioned the recent fad of barefoot running and minimalist shoes that has come and gone. Do you see any big changes on the horizon in the running shoe industry or any exciting changes in running shoe technology?

The acceptance of blended foams and the lack of traditional drop-in cushioning units such as Air units, gel, hydro-flow. That will move out. In the end the foam is the guts of the shoe and it always has been. It’s just that the gel is easier to market. If they get the foam better the loads on the joints will be reduced and the shoes will provide more support without needing the medial posts. This will make for a lighter shoe while still providing support. What we are striving for in a running shoe is the lightest shoe possible without sacrificing support.